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The Boxscore Geeks Show: Drake, the Turnover Era, and Robert Horry


Video Show


Andres Alvarez(@nerdnumbers)

Produced by Brian Foster(@boxscorebrian)

This week's poll

Show Notes

Brian was referencing this hit by Vlad Guerrero. Baseball's a silly sport.

Historical Numbers

Patrick's amazing work means we have NBA Wins Produced numbers back to the 1970s!. That's as good as it's going to get too sadly. When you see other advanced stats go earlier, the "trick" they use is to make up guesses for player stats.

Oh yeah, Patrick also added a way to compare players' career stats. Check it out!

We have a lot to say about the best 50 NBA seasons. How about that Rodney McCray?

I manage to reference my 92 Dream Team poster. Looking at his numbers, I'll take back my dig at Chris Mullin. That said, Christian Laettner had no business on that team. Now, that aside, Dennis Rodman was the best player in the NBA in 1992.

Robert Horry Hall of Fame

Does he belong in the Hall of Fame? We've been arguing about this all week.

We get on a tangent about why the Hall of Fame's "lax standards" and the BCS are good things in terms of entertainment for fans. Compelling playoffs are good, as we've written about before.

On Robert Horry, the number of players the Hall lets in makes the standards lax enough to get him in. That said, many other players need to go first, Mutombo? How about Brent Barry? Oh yeah, Horace Grant gets snubbed from his contributions to Michael Jordan's legacy.

Toronto Raptors and Drake

Drake trying to lure Devin Durant to the Toronto Raptors resulted in a $25,000 fine. What's worth noting is this is not normal in most fields. In areas like tech, the idea of people being allowed to job search is the norm. Companies are expected to try and woo talent. In pro-sports we have people worrying about collusion when friends talk about working together. 

An example of actual tampering was the Joe Smith saga in Minnesota. Of course, that was poorly executed even before it was punished.

Boxscore Geeks Drinking Game

Anyone with graphic aptitude that wants to make a poster for this? We're starting to get a few rules together (add yours in the comments below)

  • Anytime we bring up Kevin Love
  • Anytime we bring up the "tech industry"
  • Anytime we compare something to professional wrestling.
  • Anytime Dre's dogs make noise.

Shout Outs

Brent Barry(@Barryathree) for his love of our Horry piece and bringing up True Shooting numbers on Twitter.

John Floyd(@baddynoshoes) and Andrew Sutton do amazing work in the comments. Thank you!

Rodney McCray gets an official shout out for stumping us by his great play.

Jonathan Weiler(@jonweiler) He keeps making the list! Again, checkout the ESPN Watch.

The people, protestors, and media of Ferguson earn a shout out. We are absolutely against the travesties of the Ferguson police. Our support goes out to those that whose rights have been oppressed and those that have kept reporting and protesting.


Intro Music - Test Drive by Zapac.

Outro Music - Simply the Best by Tina Turner

At the 29:40 mark, you guys begin to talk about playoff realignment. Thanks for the shout out
On an old podcast with Alvarez and Weil. The point was made that Rodman's WP was misleading. If player doesn't shoot a lot but converts a decent amount (57.4 TS%), why is this bad? He grabs 22.2 rebounds per48 and turns over the ball only at 2 per48. I wonder how his WP would change if we control for rebounds and double his turnovers while decreasing his shooting percentages by say 30% to the tune of 40.2 TS%. This probably brings him to slightly below average because he is still grabbing rebounds at a crazy rate. *also I forgot to note that he takes away possessions too but not a significant rate*
I talked about this before:

Not shooting a lot does not, in anyway, make you a better shooter. The NBA is, and always has been, full of guys who don't shoot much, and STILL suck at converting. There are a bunch of Mark Madsens, Jason Collins, etc, every year.

It is just not as easy as "only shoot 5 times a game and you will make 3 of them!" no matter how much people want it to be in order to keep deluding themselves that players like Tyson Chandler aren't all-star caliber players.
we agree on that. just find it funny that people make the low usage argument. there is value in not shooting a lot, which was my point. Kerr on Open Court said that there would be games where Rodman would try to not score. Not a bad plan since he grabs bunch of rebounds.
Thanks for the shout out; tbh it made my day. Also, Patrick deserves a medal and a big ol' sack of American dollars for his extraordinary work on the historical data. You made one of my very favorite websites way, way better. I think it's a matter of time before one of you guys gets poached by a front office.
At risk of saying something really obvious, 'tampering' rules and fines are 100% about reducing player leverage and keeping salaries down. Of course the owners take that very seriously.
Are we getting a Team USA/World Cup writeup? The team choices are certainly interesting. A nice mix of underrated players, overrated players and Anthony Davis. Also the debate of whether professionals should even play is creeping up thanks to injuries and all the dropouts.
I know this is really late to the party, but I haven't spoken or written a word since Monday, when I clicked 'season' and saw 1977-78. I can't--It's just so--I don't know how to--"My God. It's full of stars!"
Patrick, I love you, man. I have to go, now; something's going on with my eyes, and my screen's all blurry.
Artist's impression of Patrick after The Update:

Also, on a more somber and less basketball-related note, Dre is obviously quite right on the subject of the police response to the unrest in Ferguson. We do still in fact have laws restraining the conduct of the police in this country, and they have been manifestly violated in the police response to the Michael Brown case. The Posse Comitatus Act is still in fact in force, and you can't magically turn soldiers into police officers by pretending that they're still cops as they're rolling around in mine-resistant (!) vehicles and waving machine guns around. I can't waltz around with cocaine in my pocket and tell a cop, "no, it's cool, that's not cocaine, it's just Colombian marching powder!" The operative principle is precisely the same in each case.

Agents of the state in military vehicles, with military weapons, using violence on a large scale against unarmed people, are in fact soldiers, and not police officers. You can't magically ignore the laws of this country through tricks of bureaucratic classification.

However, of course, if anyone thinks that the Ferguson PD, or anyone else, is going to be held accountable for this avalanche of travesties, I've got some land to sell you in Florida.

Anyway, I hope we don't have to dwell on it, but I thought it should be pointed out that the government has, in effect, used unlawful military violence against its own citizens and on its own territory. Disgraceful all around.
Can we have a return of the jbrett codes?
On the one hand, someone once said any publicity is good publicity. On the other hand, they did seem to be a lightning rod for criticism, from everyone who thinks the Scientific Method is either mysticism or snobbery (or both).
Baddyno shoes,

YOU may not be able to get away with the old “Columbian Marching Powder” defense, but, if you were a Miami FLA cop and you tested positive for cocaine, you could say: “it’s just a homemade sex remedy cream I got from an old Cuban dude” and on that basis you'd get reinstated to the force with + get $75,000. Think I’m making it up? Check
Or just Google
When talking about the length of the series and match ups people want to see, everyone goes to making the earlier rounds shorter which does the opposite of what is trying to be accomplished. So ideally you would want a play in game, as mentioned in the link above, but in the initial rounds, you want those to be the longer ones while getting closer to the finals, the games decrease. So you get the better match ups and the randomness. Or the march madness style works just out of pure randomness and excitement.
the filters are broken by the new system for players rated on position as G, GF, F, FC. for example there is no way to come up with Charles Barkley, nor Karl Malone nor John Salley, nor Dan Majerle, even with all positions clicked.
also perhaps the Monstars would have defeated the toon squad had the blue one not picked the talent of 1995 Shawn Bradley.
also perhaps the Monstars would have defeated the toon squad had the blue one not picked the talent of 1995 Shawn Bradley.
I am very pleased by how much the podcast has improved over time. I remember the occasional, garbled, WoW audio-only podcast days. I also enjoy when you delve into more sociopolitical items. Love the site and all the updates and effort you collectively put into it. I was so happy to see the new, expanded database. Over the years, I have never stopped reading and appreciating your work, though I don't comment much. I used to, (on WoW) but mostly the result was being told to do the research to answer my own questions (not a bad answer, but I'm too lazy for that) or getting somewhat rude responses. Not by the writers, but from others commenting. I understand your desire to hold the comments to a high standard, though your comment policy still seems a bit strange. No matter, I still enjoy the site immensely. Anyway, I was wondering if the player position on the stat pages will be set for good now, or if we will still be able to adjust, so we can see their WP at other positions?
Is it two drinks if you bring up the drinking game during the podcast?

Regarding the comment policy, I would suggest that you leave an indicator that there was a comment which was removed, just to avoid some unnecessary confusion.

At 35:30 Andres says: ... the wins produced formula does not underrate shooting guards. In fact, if anything we give shooting guards the best chance they have to look good with advanced stats, and many of them still fail ...

That reminded me that position assignment in the tables is now algorithmic, and left me wondering: does the position assignment you use now assign equal playing time to each position on each team?
Editor's Note: Thanks for comment! Did drop the last paragraph regarding position adjustment as it was incorrect. Don't worry, we will do a piece on pos adjustment and WP

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